If you don’t want Open Source Permaculture, FUCK YOU

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(Andrew) #1

The original article appeared on Medium, and has been deleted by the author. Out of respect for that deletion, we do not include the original author’s name here. However, we find the article an important part of the discourse surrounding permaculture, and while we do not endorse it fully, feel it is important to keep the text accessible.

Ideas improve. The meaning of words participates in the improvement. Plagiarism is necessary. Progress implies it. It embraces an author’s phrase, makes use of his expressions, erases a false idea, and replaces it with the right idea. -Guy Debord

If you don’t want Open Source Permaculture, FUCK YOU

Here’s to all the fake-ass straw-hat wide eyed motherfuckers who’ve been hogging the permaculture pie for the past decades.

You pilfered it, strangled it, monopolized it and tried to draw it into your little marshes of self importance.

You’re not just kumbaya hipsters, you’re kumbaya hipsters who charge each others hefty sums of money for the privilege of sitting around and listening to the same tired bullshit, re-arranged and re-arranged and re-arranged until you can re-market it.

You’re charging each other and the world pays the price for your irrelevance and uselessness.

And then you make another book, with 3% new stuff in it, 3% which should have been a hefty blog post bringing change and freshness into the world, not an overgrown pet project that you publish for personal fame.

Today I read a list of “ten things to do after finishing your PDC”. Take another PDC. Look over your notes. Hold a local seminar. Arrange for another teacher to hold a local seminar. And so on.

Are you motherfuckers growing PDCs? What is this, the endless PDC harvest of the permaculture fanboys?

Get a grip. This is about the world, and its ecosystem, and about local ecosystems, and growing food and culture.

None of that has fuck-all to do with the tired concept you call a PDC. It has to do with useful, free information, open and malleable and tried and tested.

Not conceptualized and overtaught. Tried and fucking tested. Brilliant
information, not tried and tested by Geoff Lawton with the help of badly treated interns and a worldwide conspiracy of morons who keep buying his DVDs.

Bill Mollison, bless his over-talking soul, annoying as he was, at least had the excuse of having come up during an age where there was no internet. So the only way he could disseminate information was through publishing books. And STILL, he gave more away for free, there’s more free video and audio and written stuff from him than from almost all the “generations” of “permaculture teachers” since, combined.

Permaculture isn’t a fringe topic you should have to study by way of torrents. Permaculture really is the cutting edge, with a few modifications here and there, or putting together the best of what’s come out in the past two decades, permaculture really, truly is the cutting edge of ecosystem practice.

As such, it is also the cutting edge of saving the world and reintegrating human beings into nature, and cultivating their humaniy. AS SUCH, it needs to be free and open source.

Every one of you “teachers” and “instructors” charging 1k and 2k for your courses, badly structured and hard to follow, a fucking shame by any standards (if you were leading an army with this quality of instruction, you’d get slaughtered), you should crawl into the nearest hole with the last bit of honor still intact in you.

You should have open sourced your knowledge long ago. Everything you know, if you charge people for it, you need to put it out in the open. Share it, make it better, let others make it better, grow actual ecosystems, then if someone is willing to pay for your brilliance, let them pay.

But if you charge for permaculture and don’t have all your information out there, open sourced, all your knowledge, to the best of your expression, then you’re a fucking scumbag. Open source it, then you can charge.

And the standard of practice and of quick intelligent understanding and cultivation of ecosystems won’t improve this way. Just charging and making some money “because you have to”, and “you have mouths to feed”, and “this is capitalism”, won’t help that knowledge become quicker and smarter and better and more applicable.

This is how you make money with permaculture

It will just keep it stuck in cycles of appropriation, misuse and non-use.

And for the people who, a few years ago, did a crowdfunding campaign and raised 10k to make an open source permaculture resource available online, then ran with the fucking money, there’s a special place in hell for you.

Because stealing 10k in this world is not that big of a deal, it’s done over and over and over in a lot of walks of life, but apparently in permaculture it’s hard to raise 10k for open-sourcing this field, very hard, and for some low-lives who weren’t able to cut it stealing in some more moneyed field, but came into permaculture to stink up the place and consume the last bit of good karma available, like I said, special place in hell.

Response to later comments and feedback:

No, I will not give you my car and fridge. Those are heavy objects that are hard to exchange and useless in the long term. They reflect a heavy and difficult society, and they also reflect your difficulty in understanding Open Source.

You are against liberation of knowledge, and thus, against the future, and you need to stop or vanish. Either one. Not only that, you are afraid, unimaginative, and lack human value and courage, and you’re clinging to scarcity instead of understanding the pure potential of intelligent knowledge.

Open Source knowledge frees up activity and value, and allows people to generate more work and more projects, more connections with more people around the world, and it allows the spontaneous occurrence of brilliance independent of traditional teachers and resources.

Ultimately, this creates more resources for everyone.

There is a kid in Africa right now who could change his village, who is brilliant and hard working and a good human being, and who doesn’t have 10k hours to spend researching permaculture online from wildly different sources, and his potential is being killed because some douchebags decided to make money endlessly off of permaculture.

That is NOT acceptable anymore. Pure and simple. That kid’s brilliance and potential are need to be empowered by a polished, usable, smart and quick resource that is the accumulation of knowledge and intelligence of this whole community and the various resources it has worked with for the past two decades.

To Tom Le Blanc,

Yes, there is knowledge online, quite a bit of it. All of it is rarefied, spread around, generated through economics of scarcity, and not in any way immediately usable as a whole. It is not a unit. All the free info is irrelevant, because it’s mostly low quality and not a structured centered whole that anyone in the world can take up and use.

That is the meaning of Open Source — readily available and usable, not people like you whining that everyone should be able to charge 2k for a PDC. They could charge 10k for all I care, if Permaculture knowledge was Open Source. Right now they’re not charging for quality of instruction, for quality of experience, for intelligence and presence and the great activities happening at their place, they’re charging for secretive knowledge and the cumulative lack of Open Source work of the permaculture community, which comes with a great cost to the world.

In short, they’re charging for a great cost to the world. Anyone who doesn’t understand P2P culture and economics, and the power of Open Source, doesn’t understand this.

So they need to understand, because that is the future, not charging money for knowledge that is meant to make the world a better, more fertile and more powerful place, with more social and ecosystem value, as well as economy and activity value to go around for everyone.

That the Permaculture Institute of San Francisco are being relatively good guys does not change this situation. They are just being relatively good guys within a broken model, and it’s ultimately meaningless as long as they don’t Open Source their knowledge.

Keep your challenges, perhaps accomplish them yourself.

Bottom line is, you’re making apologies for greed and rationalizing it because you hope to profit from it in some way.

Josef Davies-Coates said:

“That is the meaning of Open Source — readily available and usable” (quote from my article)

No. That is not the meaning at all. This is the meaning:


You’re getting stuff all muddled up. It would be perfectly possible and completely reasonable for permaculture authors who had “open sourced” their books, course materials, handouts etc to still charge for courses/ consultation etc (just as creators of open source code do).

But there is a dearth of authors and teachers who have open sourced their work, and imho that is ethically wrong and does need attention (but rants like this are sadly unlikely to generate the required attention nor action).

To their credit the Permaculture Association do routinely release their stuff using the Creative Commons “by, share alike” licensehttp://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/ (which basically means you are free to share it so long as you credit them and also freely share any derivative works using the same license)

But almost no one else in the global permaculture community does so (does anyone know of any others?!). And this is backward. And it does mean permaculture doesn’t spread as widely nor have as much impact as it urgently needs to have. Which I think is the real point I feel you are failing to coherently make, but thanks for at least trying, I guess. :stuck_out_tongue:


To which my answer is:

No, that is not the MEANING of Open Source, that is the working definition for establishing a basic protocol for the sharing of materials under open source license.

The actual MEANING of Open Source is, as I said, quick availability and deep usability. You’ll find this all throughout the Open Source community, a strive to achieve simplicity where it is possible, and to define the right use and right interface for every function, then achieve it and the most usable way.

That is the MEANING, and for something to be truly useful and truly spread, it has to strive towards these standards.

And the only thing getting “all muddled up” here is your reading comprehension.

I stated quite clearly that there is no issue with people charging for actual Permaculture work and services. Or for their own working presence within an ecosystem, whether in establishing or maintaining it.

They can charge as much or as little as they want for that.

The difference lies in the fact that when you teach about improving the world and the standard of living for all beings, and you teach ethical principles of sharing and so on, but at the same time you need to maintain a competitive advantage towards the public by keeping knowledge secret (to the best of their ability), or keeping usable knowledge processes and usable knowledge structures secret, then you’re not being ethical.

Not at all. And this also suggests that you do not trust that you actually provide a useful ecosystem creation service to the world.

So no, these people are not doing permaculture, they’re not even doing gardening, for the most part, they’re doing PDC teaching and it’s a pyramid scheme.

And that is different from establishing a basis of knowledge and freely giving it to the world and then being useful and creative in the world via your skills and charging for that whatever you can/need/are willing to. And they can charge for the teaching experience as well, as long as the knowledge is open sourced.

Which is of course what programmers do, and if they hadn’t, well it would be a lot more expensive for us to have this conversation right now.

And indeed, this does mean that permaculture is not establishing the right protocols within the world, not spreading and not evolving nearly enough.

That is actually one of the problems for “permaculture designers”. They know when permaculture goes truly open source, the intelligence, density and usability of the information will increase and by sheer process of natural selection a new generation of actual practitioners will emerge.

As for me failing to make a coherent point, you nincompoop, my point was very coherently made in the manner and with the language that I chose for this task, and it worked very well. The more people complain and whine about my language, the more the point makes its way deeper into the places it needs to.


In case anyone missed out on that part, I DON’T LIKE permaculture people selling their shitty little PDCs.

So everyone who doesn’t like my language, choke on it. The more you choke, the more it spreads.

P.S: Regarding further open source resources, check here.

P.P.S: I’m not the only one giving the permaculture saints a good hard slapping. Check out this article: Permaculture is NOT Trademarked.

Anyone reading this should know that there are those who are mentally, financially or functionally oppressed by the current standards of the Permaculture industry, and who have a hard time finding true community in what should be the Permaculture Community.

There are those who are thanking me for this article, and find it liberating. They have put various projects on hold due to fear of lack of approval from the permaculture-saints-that-be, and that is hurting not just them, but a lot of other beings. It is a growing and spreading circle of hurt.

The truth is they are free to practice and grow permaculture to their heart’s content. They are free to do whatever they want, work with nature, and help other beings.

Permaculture is about liberation, freedom and prosperity. Permaculture is about the natural fertility of the earth, and the natural right of every being to cultivate and enjoy that fertility, freely.

There are those who find the current state of affairs in permaculture to be stuck, overbearing, not conductive to growth and liberation, and simply a parody of industry and marketing where financial interests win over human interests.

That is NOT how things will go down long term, and that is what this article is about.


More fun comments:

Person one: Here is as good a place as any for me to bring up my hidden shame: I have read Bill Mollison’s Designer’s Manual and it reads like incoherent jibberish to me. It is all over the place. I suspect he may have been high as a kite for most of it, it’s so wonky, and it seems like he (or an editor) just slapped a bunch of cocktail napkins into typeface and bound it.
Am I alone in this?
Person two: The “all over the place, slapped a bunch of cocktail napkins together” feel has to do with the way the world is physically separated into continents and islands. There is very little continuity in the parts of nature we deal with as terrestrial mammals.
Person three: Silly me. Here I thought it was supposed to be a book, nay, a designer’s manual, even, but of course it is expensive performance art, instead.

I’m not trolling or trying to be antagonistic, I just agree that beneficial knowledge should be free, and that doesn’t preclude any of our ability to pay our bills.

I agree, I’ve been saying since I first heard of permaculture, that it needs to be easily accessed if it is going ot make a dent in conventional farming practices. I’m 27 and living near pay check to paycheck (I’m married). We are lucky enough to be able ot experiment on 10 acres on my father-in-law’s land, but I haven’t even bought the bible, er, Bill Mollison’s $100 book yet. I get emails all the time about local PDC’s. They are so easy to sign up for, just schedule to take a month off work and spend $2,000, no biggie! Though I even have problems with non-permaculture events, like those held by my closest Ag college (Clemson), who seem to think getting non farmers into farming will be easy by having an all day class on a Thursday or Tuesday. Why the hell can it not be on a Saturday!?

The ethics pretty much say give back to people dont they? Knowledge goes under that umbrella in my opinion, and giving does not equal selling.

I’ve wanted to take a PDC for 5 years, but artificial scarcity has made it impossible.
MIT and Stanford lectures are online. They’re doing just fine.
If you get the best people to lecture we’ll all pitch in I promise.
Even super obscure podcasts are doing just fine with Patreon etc.
If you keep doing interesting science the world will keep being interested.

What's the difference between permaculture and feralculture?
(Shodo Spring) #2

I loved my PDC, and it was lower priced than most. But permaculture
knowledge absolutely needs to be freely available. The books are a start.
The fraud of a supposed Open Source online Permaculture thing - So that’s
what happened.

Don’t buy Mollison’s book. Plenty of others are better. Gaia’s Garden the
intro and encouragement. Peter Bane’s Permaculture Handbook, takes you from
beginning to end. And by the way if you have a public library you don’t
have to buy them until you identify the one that you want to keep as a

(Jarosław Wątroba) #3

A great article indeed! But this not only applies to permaculture… how many useless “survival” and “bushcraft” books are there? Books that look like all of their content was just Googled and copy/pasted… Yes, reliable knowledge is hard to come by, unfortunatelly.

Permaculture is still seen too much as a fancy new way of being “ecological”… as a matter of fact, in Poland for instance, very few people even heard the word… As long as people remain blind to their domestication and how they are destroying the world around them, and how agriculture is NOT “green”, there is little hope…

(David Lauterwasser) #4

This is EXACTLY why I never bothered to do a PDC, and this is why we don’t teach PDC’s here. This guy speaks from my heart! The whole thing is so commercialized…

(BenSpiritbear) #5

Same here. I read, listen and practice. Same way I’ve learned herbalism. I’ve been fortunate enough to learn under others who don’t try to capitalize on what they know. Once in a while I’ll think about taking a PDC but can’t bring myself to paying those fees.


I get the point of the article but I never took a course or bought a book and I can permaculture circles around the supposed “leaders” of the movement.

If the writer of this article spent the same amount of time posting actual permaculture information instead of whining about what other idiots are doing, he could have solved his own problem. Permaculture is easy and anyone taking more than a few pages to explain the concepts is either over explaining in an attempt to make the process clear to idiots that will never understand it anyway, or they’re trying to “fill out” another book so they can justify the price.

I know there are different combinations of plants that grow together best for each different area but the core principles are simple and universal.

Sadly, permaculture isn’t even close to a solution to humanity’s consumption problem as it requires fences and land ownership. When I get my trike finished and get out on the land, one of my first projects will be writing a blog on my no shovel/no fences permaculturish techniques. If I had help down here, it would happen much faster so if there’s anyone out there that really wants to learn how to live sustainably and ethically, please get in touch and lets use the money you would have used to fill another “permie” materialist’s pockets to build a movement that freely teaches truly effective methods of stewarding the regrowth of Nature.

(Andrew) #7

Sounds like someone could benefit from reading a few more books on the topic. Sorry, I couldn’t resist.


I’ve seen people attempt permie projects on public lands but the tragedy of the commons seems to ruin them pretty quickly. I’m also aware of different natural pest control methods but none of those will stop starving humans from raping a project if/when things go south.

It’s a good step in the right direction but far from a solution.

When I think sustainable, I really mean sustainable. I don’t see the civi hordes making it twenty miles into the desert and raiding the scorpion dens and cacti patches that I helped to grow.


It may take a while but eventually you’ll see that I generally keep my opinions to myself and try to share only what the preponderance of evidence has shown me to be irrefutable fact.

The nomadic/hg aspect of the Feralculture project is the main thing that keeps me here. I’ve probably read, or at least attempted to read, every permaculture book I could get my hands on. I stopped when the unpluggable holes in the concept became too apparent to ignore.

(Andrew) #10

I must respectfully disagree that permaculture requires fences and land ownership. However, I can see how the extra bit I quoted could lead to ambiguity.


You’re probably right, and I sincerely hope you are. I’ve just been in incoming zombie alpacalips mode for a while so while I have seen fenceless permaculture be successful a few times, a place in North Africa that was featured in a permaculture video comes to mind, if industrial civ collapses, there are going to be people in planes and using drones to find every last bit of food out there while they have the energy/resources/weapons/ammo. They’re going to find patches of beans and corn, cherry trees, raised beds, mixed grain crops, rotational livestock operations, implements, etc, that are very common in permaculture where I see hand tended remote places with wild foods that civi’s aren’t accustomed to eating being completely ignored. Almost every civi I’ve tried to describe the taste of scorpions or javalina to freaks out and says they’s die before even trying it.

Most permaculture experiments I’ve seen are just sitting ducks in the event of a collapse, or even a natural disaster where millions of acres of truly wild foods is a much more resilient and stable food supply.

I guess this could be a communism/capitalism vs “real communism”/“real capitalism” kind of divide. I’m arguing against permaculture as most typically practiced and not the ideal of the principles of it applied in the perfect way.

We’re probably tomato tomahtoing here…it’s interesting to discuss for sure though.:slight_smile:


@Ernesto, of course public land permaculture exists. It’s everywhere, the leftovers of the indigenous people’s handprints on the land…


It does in places, for now. As soon as it becomes easier to hike down to the river to pick the native/pioneer planted cherry trees than it is to get cherries from a store, those permaculture projects will get picked clean and likely destroyed. Permaculture as it is normally implemented, relies upon domesticated plants that are easy to identify, and in a world with the overpopulation and unsustainable civilization problems we have, anything easily identifiable can’t really be considered permanent or sustainable where wild plants growing in wild ways have a much better chance of surviving due to location, inefficiency of harvesting them, and civilized people’s aversion to and ignorance of all things undomesticated.

Basically, I don’t really care about “Open Source Permaculture” because it’s just not as beneficial to our biology and environment, it takes more effort, doing it on a large scale will likely involve hierarchical structures, it generally relies upon domesticated plants and animals, and it fools people into thinking that they can keep living in cities as long as they keep visiting their community permaculture project and taking home 10% of their caloric needs at best, while relying upon capitalist agriculture for the rest of their needs. I don’t like the term “permaculture” because just like “anarchist”, a few creepy people have subverted it’s meaning, and as practiced from the very beginning, is much less permanent than the creators and practioners preach.

So fuck me I guess…lol! I want Open Source Feralculture. I think we should leave “permaculture” to the starbucks and Wheaton crowd.

(Andrew) #14

I hear you. When it gets down to questions of practicality, the discussion often tends to become about hypotheses about the probability of future scenarios ranging from near-term human extinction to mining asteroids to play out Battlestar Galactica (Star Trek, whatever) fantasies.

To my mind, that kind of prognostication falls under fragile, or maybe resilient. It seems the only antifragile orientation is maintaining the practiced capacity for nomadism.

As this thread was about delineation of terms, we needn’t pledge allegiance one way or the other, and I usually find the discussions interesting either way.


I think that prognostication about the most likely scenarios is a good problem solving technique and mental exercise. As a nomad, I’ve found that feeding myself from permaculture projects was impossible but feeding myself using feralculture techniques wasn’t only easy, it quickly became instinctive. I also realized that the feral nomad plan, when enabled with a tiny bit of technological wizardry, was a good plan for most of the more likely future scenarios.

I guess this post set me off on a tangent a bit because not only is the author pushing something I kind of see as futile, he’s basically whining at other people for not taking the time to do what he wants the way he wants them to it.


If one thousand people visit a cherry tree and eat a handful of fruit and do nothing else, the trees remains to bear fruit another year. If just one person spits out the pits of their portion of food and plants them in the ground, they had done the work of establishing a future forest. I think your perspective is overly cynical. Overharvest of Arizona pinenuts isn’t what kills the tress. Overharvest of acorns from canyon oaks doesn’t kill the trees. Really, roots are the most sensitive, and yet still, even without consciously planting them back after digging, the act of digging is enough to encourage germination of more roots from the seedbank, provided the forager pressure is low-density.


Is overly cynical a thing? Like Diogenes the Cynic? I love the stories about that guy!

I hear what you’re saying and I don’t want to plan for the worst case scenarios, and definitely prefer to spend more time focusing on a bright future, but I have to, at least a little bit, look at what skills, tools and lifestyle will allow me to be the most adaptable to the largest number of the possibilities, both positive and negative. I think about this stuff not only due to my instinct for self preservation, but also out of pure curiosity to see it all go down and the tiny glimmer of hope of getting the chance to start fresh in some way.

I don’t think that calling the food that’s growing on it’s own that is left over from past indigenous peoples “permaculture” does it justice. I think that those plants are still around because of feralculture principles and not permaculture principles. Nomadic or semi nomadic people likely planted them and tended to them as they passed through season to season. They’re more likely to consist of less domesticated species. If they were planted in hugelculture beds, constructed by overweight old capitalist control freak codgers driving bulldozers, and strung with tibetan prayer flags, I could call them “public permaculture lands”. I hope that makes sense.

I know that people harvesting and eating from the trees isn’t what kills them, it’s the people using them for firewood, structures, clearing them for trails, lowering their aquifers with wells and excessive water consumprion and pollution, and infesting them with foreign parasites that’s wiping them out. Despite the damage they’re taking on all fronts though, pine nuts and acorns can still be foraged in abundance because they’re wild foods. Due to their distribution and the type of nearly impassible lands lots of them grow in, they’ll likely remain a resource for animals and nomdic minimalist humans post collapse where stands of domesticated trees near water sources will get pillaged quickly.

(Shodo Spring) #18

feralculture easy? This is very interesting. I’m on 17 acres, torn between foraging the woods and working in the orchard and garden. I have two great foraging books - but do I think I could survive on them on this land?

If you’re up for saying more, I’m interested.


Foraging as it’s typically defined, used to be a big part of hg life but, these days, the waste of civilization is a much easier resource to forage. I think that freeganism is the only current ethical and semi sustainable diet option. While I’d much rather eat wild foods all of the time, the ecosystem just can no longer support many people doing that, and that lifestyle would consume so much of my time that I’d be useless as an activist/inventor.

I’ve also found that faith based eating is significantly less work than participating in the whole struggle for survival thing. Daniel Suelo has a good explanation of it on his blog zerocurrency.blogspot.com Basically, animals don’t worry about where/how they’re going to eat every day. They go out, do their thing, follow their instincts, and the universe provides…usually. In the case of all sustaining communities, the activities and consumption contribute positively to the regrowth/expansion of the resources. In the case of bears, it’s pooping out the seeds somewhere else and fertilizing. With hg’s and semi nomadic people, the pruned, burned, etc. Since I’m stuck in civ if I want to get anything done, I poop the seeds back into and fertilize the community that helps me by dropping whatever I’m doing and helping them with whatever I can whenever they need me.

Also, whether the source of foraged food is from Nature or civ’s waste, I’ve found that movement and interaction with Nature and/or community is necessary. You can’t find berries or opportunities to contribute positively to the lives of others while hiding in a cave, man-made, or natural.

Today for instance, I have no money, like $0.00, but I have a few options to get food.
Beg- I did this once, when I had two jobs…Not my thing.
Ask family/friends for help. - I’m too independent. Also not my thing.
Participate in capitalism, buy/rent land, farm, or buy food. - This just hasn’t worked well.
Go forage and fish in the desert, in the hardest part of the year to find food.- Neck hurts.

Or, the option I ended up with, which was totally coincidental, as usual. I asked a good friend that was having a bad day if he needed some help and he did. I did a little mechanic work for him so he can go home early and he gave me an awesome sandwich and some grapes, that another of his friends had randomly dropped off for him, just to be nice. Somehow, something like this happens almost every day, and on days when it doesn’t, I can forage, or fast, or dumpster dive, or fish, or hunt.

As far as health of the food goes, I’ve had the pleasure of knowing 110 year old ladies that drank whiskey, smoked, and rode Harleys all the way up to the end, and had a blast doing it. I’m a firm believer in joy overcoming “reality”, placebo effect, gumption, and scientifically, hormesis, whatever doesn’t kill us, makes us stronger.

A friend grossed out that I ate a trashcan find twinkie once and I told her, "If the apocalypse happens and the only food we can find is a twinkie truck, Ill be at least somewhat adapted. You’ll probably die of starvation or shock. Gut biome diversity and immunoadaptation are also important and need exposure to happen. Also, on the random chance that I do end up finding some peaceful existence and mating, it will be best epigenetically that I be adapted as much as possible to the new environment. When I ate clean and holed up at the cabin in the woods, every trip to town ended up in a week or two of sickness. If I had a soda, I thought I was going to die. Now, I can handle a Walmart visit, at night, and can drink a soda or two per month with no ill effects.

I hope that all makes sense.

(Shodo Spring) #20

I have to admit - my total avoidance of sugar means I get hurt if I have any. But I just don’t like being rageful and depressed - so I’m continuing to avoid it. I’ve found dumpster diving to have pretty well dried up - I used to know several good sources. Thanks for offering a picture of a way to do it.