Societal manners vs. Instincts

Something for discussion:

While my thoughts on this focus more on children and raising a child it can apply to adults as well.

As a parent that is trying to raise feral, free thinking children I am often torn between a child exploring their natural instincts and teaching them what society’s expectation are on manners. I am not saying hunter gatherer culture has no manners but they are different and what may be natural for a child to do would be considered bad manners and acting like a “caveman” (which I hate that slur). I personally don’t really care about what society deems proper and mannerly but I also wonder if I owe it to my children to at least make them aware of these expectations. I cannot just assume that my children will follow my same path no matter how much I would want them to. They may choose to live more in civilization than we do and because of that I would no want them to experience any mistreatment because of this then possibly resentment towards me.

I thought this might be a good topic to discuss. I could not find it being previously discussed but I could be wrong.

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I would encourage you to give your kids the skills and knowledge to get
along in mainstream society - at some level. You could treat is the way you
might teach them to visit a foreign country - be courteous to those who
have a different culture - many possibilities here, over the course of
years of childhood.

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That’s pretty much the balance I try to do with them. It can be more difficult with the younger ones. Trying to get them to understand manners and societies expectations yet not enforce them on the children.

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Lovely. Blessings to you and them.

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Blessings to you too friend.

I think it’s good consider that good manners are more than just a pre-packaged set of behaviors… though they are pretty standard in society, and most people aren’t thinking on the daily about the “why” of culture… Manners are really a result of teaching things like, thoughtfulness, patience, calm assertiveness, respect for others, self discipline, impulse control… and maybe most importantly, empathy… If a child learns those things, then they’ll naturally display manners that will see them through in most social situations. On the other hand, if kids are taught to go through certain motions, and say certain things in a specific setting, but have been given no reasoning as to why to do so, they’re just going to be polite little assholes. LOL. Authoritative parents guide and explain reasons and set boundaries and clear consequences so a child doesn’t “perform manners” as manipulative performance art, but is a whole person… a thinking, feeling, interacting human being.
It sounds great… but it’s not easy. That’s why so many default to authoritarian ways of getting control of a situation… it’s a short cut that too many parents have taken, and it’s a big part of why things are going wrong in society. :slight_smile: Good Yule to you and your clan.

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Agree with everything you said. There are some things though that wouldn’t fall under that like whether to eat with utensils or with your hands. Many cultures use their hands yet it’s looked down upon by western culture. Is that being too picky or over thinking? I don’t know. As far as being respectful and nice to others I think that’s even more important in a tribe. For people to live that close together there has to be respect and tolerance.

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I posted this in the Facebook Group, and there was some interesting discussion. I don’t want to contradict what’s been said, I just like thinking about how these subtle bits of domestication can creep into psychosocial dynamics and the totalizing economic framings of life in this culture.

Never say ‘thank you’.

One of the most refreshing conversations I was part of when @Dennis visited last fall was on the topic of saying ‘thank you’. Or more accurately, on why saying ‘thank you’ is antithetical to hunter-gatherer social relationships. I think that’s worth exploring and putting into practice.

Of three (known) sets of neighbors in a 20 mile radius, all appear to default to a “gift economics” mode of interaction. I’ve noticed that at least two individuals among them seem to ignore being thanked for things—almost as if it’s uncomfortable for them to hear.

Below is a transcript of audio, and it’s unclear at times. But it touches on the issue of saying thank you among Greenland Inuit. I think it’s important because there is a quote I’ve often heard as an attempt to explain “gift economics” succinctly:

“Up here we say that by gifts one makes slaves and by whips one makes dogs.”

The problem is that “gift” in the quote has a meaning different from how Marcel Mauss (and others) uses “gift” in “gift economics”. I think the poor translation of that sentence, resulting in conflation of two different ideas, has done a lot to damage the understanding of gift economics in primitivist/rewilding circles.

David Graeber: “One of the classic examples from a Danish writer named Peter Froichen who lived amongst inuit in Greenland for a while, people there had a terrible aversion to saying thank you. Y’know, you’d go on a hunt, you wouldn’t get anything, someone else would, guy would show up with a bunch of walrus meat or some present like that, and you say ‘oh thank you so much.’ Don’t say that! You’re saying thank you it’s like you’re saying you owe me something and that’s wrong because we’re humans, and humans, well, we help each other out. We say ‘gifts make slaves like whips make dogs.’ So if you say ‘thank you’ you’re saying its a gift and I owe you so that’s bad. What we do is we share. If you live in a society where you don’t have impersonal markets, that’s what you find. Y’know you give somebody something but you might be doing it to help them, you might be doing it to get them in your debt in some way, you might be doing it because you hate them you want to humiliate them by showing them you’re more generous and showing them that they need the help. There’s a million different motives. You can’t boil it down to simple greed or simple selflessness.”

The delineation between gifting and sharing in this interpretation requires some nuance, but its implications regarding the “gifts make slaves” quote are huge. With additional context, using one meaning of ‘gift’, would actually lead us to believe that the Inuit are against gift economics. With that meaning, all human interactions are reframed as ‘reciprocal’ exchanges which fall under the debt-barter rubric of neoclassical economics. Of course, this is an advantage to economists, because the oversimplification makes their theories appear universally true for all humans across time. I think there is good reason to reject this reframing. Rather, I think it is necessary—based on the data and on the kind of social relationships we seek to foster.

How to put this into practice?

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I think there are some like @Laurie said are natural and just should be passed on, like respect and kindness, but there are just some things that we and especially parents are made to believe we should pass on that are just obviously part of domestication. Its something I am conciously aware of as a parent and although I slip sometimes I try to be aware of what is natural and what isn’t.

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