Node One: Communications Analysis

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#1

UPDATE: We have ordered the radios and antennas for OPTION 2, the 3/4G WiFi relay.

UPDATE: The 3/4G signal seems to have degraded.

I am currently stuck upriver near @glennh’s camp because there is no communications capability at Node One. In an ideal world, no communications technology would be great! Unfortunately, organizing and building this group/community takes some communications technology in our current reality.

#Overview
There is no cell service or any grid services (cable, phone, power) at Node One. Due to the remote location, getting contractors and equipment to the property is not an easy task. Because of this, DIY solutions and systems comprised of small components are preferred.

There is cell signal available from the bluffs/hills to the East, and cell towers are in clear view on hills that direction, something like 30+ miles away LOS.

Satellite internet is available through HughesNet’s older system.

This affords 3 options.

  1. Installing a satellite system on the property itself, and relaying WiFi locally.
  2. Creating a 3/4G cellular relay link from a comm station we’d set up on the hills, which would establish a point-to-point WiFi link to a base station at Node One. WiFi would then be relayed locally. This would provide internet on the land, and phone calls could be made via internet (Skype, Google Voice, etc.)
  3. 3/4G Cellular repeater/booster at the property itself (B in the image)

##Satellite

###PROs

  • Reliability. To the extent that’s possible, HughesNet is a known quantity
  • Proximity. System would be on Node One
    ###CONs
  • Slow-ish. Gen 4 Hughes system are not currently available in Alaska. Exede is likely unworkable
  • 2-year contract
  • Hard to move
  • EDIT: Reports about VOIP (Skype, Google Voice, Hangouts, etc.) over this satellite system are generally poor to not great. This may be a deal-breaker considering a 2-year contract lock-in

###REQUIRES

  • Request: Satellite internet system [prefer used]
  • $10/mo equipment lease if you don’t own equipment
  • $60/mo subscription and a 2-year contract
  • Either $500+ professional installation,
  • or a $250 self-install course in Fairbanks

##3/4G Cell + WiFi

wifi-link.png1015×593 352 KB

###PROs

  • Flexibility [Area]. System could be expanded or re-aimed to simultaneously hit other nodes in a 20+ mile radius
  • Flexibility [Service]. Any SIM w/ data can be used for service. AT&T, T-Mobile, GCI (Alaska company), etc.
  • No contracts and/or use existing contracts
    ###CONs
  • Remote. 2 miles and a hike if system requires maintenance
  • Higher tech knowledge requirements (?)
  • Remote battery and solar

###REQUIRES

Comm Station [Point A]

Base Station [Point B]

##3/4G Cellular Repeater/Booster
###PROs

  • Simplicity. One piece of equipment
  • Flexibility. If this works, anyone’s cell phones and internet would work on the land.
    ###CONs
  • High risk to test. There’s a good chance it won’t work, and anything related to mailing or returning things is a weeks-months long production because of the location.
  • $529+

###REQUIRES

#Summary
Currently, I am leaning toward the 3/4G + WiFi solution. I think the increased flexibility it provides set against the 2-year contract and additional fees required for satellite makes it a preferable. It seems to me that the 3/4G repeater system has a high likelihood of not working. Tests so far have shown zero signal at the property, and boosting zero signal is still zero signal.

Satellite also seems like a good choice seems like too high of a barrier (2-year contract) for something with speeds so slow that low-bandwidth services like Skype don’t even work well., and more so if we had a couple more people pitching in $7-$19/mo.

In any case, the group’s account is probably $200 shy of the initial purchase. Contributions toward solving this problem will be earmarked for this purpose. Please contribute here.

Thoughts? Questions? Alternatives?

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#2

For point to point between the two sites, I’ve been fairly happy with Ubiquiti’s products if the directionals don’t work out for you. They focus on that sort of link. There are multiple service providers using them in our area to hook up farms, etc. They definitely have things that go that distance though the line of sight might be something you have to work on or do some sort of mount at top of a tree, etc.

There are people doing them with solar and there are some descriptions of setups in their forums. Not sure if anyone has extended a 4G solution with them but I’m sure you could hook up the Asus to it.

#3

VOIP (Skype, Google Voice, etc.) over these older satellite systems have fairly bad reviews overall. Another potential advantage for the 3/4G + WiFi approach.

#4

They have a lot of products, would you clarify which of them you have in mind for this?

1 Like
#5

I second this. I have a titanium m2 bullet on my sailboat that allows me to piggyback on a wifi signal up to 25 miles away (assuming I have the antenna on the masthead). Their products are designed for these types of scenarios. Find a good wifi signal in a town and figure out a path across a couple mountaintops, and share the signal with your neighbors in exchange for putting up a repeater.

Some products to go really far (100km) aren’t exactly cheap, but they would last a long time being designed for the expansion of wifi in remote areas.

Andrew, the product needed would depend on how far away the signal you are trying to connect to is. If the landowner next door had wifi internet and gave you a login, you could get by on less than $200 (not including solar, batteries, etc)

#6

There’s maybe one neighbor in a 5 mile radius so the idea to spread costs around doesn’t have much leverage. Not saying I won’t have a chat with the ole codger, but it’s not like there’s a village to shop the idea to.

But we’re talking about 2 different things, the WAN (internet) link and the LAN (local). It’s possible to set up an elaborate system of repeaters to coax WiFi over hill and dale for the WAN, but why bother when there’s 4G LTE much closer? While hopping and skipping and jumping WiFi appeals to the tinkerer in me, it seems unnecessarily complex.

Knowing there’s fast internet at point A, which is only 2 miles away, why not use that for the WAN interface and use WiFi for the LAN? And if WiFi is used for the LAN, which ubiquity product(s) make the most sense?

#7

The only neighbor has the aforementioned satellite system, and is not amenable to sharing that connection due to its low data cap.

#8

So to wrap real numbers around it, if there’s a way to get faster internet to the one neighbor, there’s a potential for $60-$90 in gross monthly revenue if one is willing to accept the headaches if becoming an ISP.

But really, the ISP angle won’t work because powering the system in winter for 24-7 internet would require a remote generator, and that doesn’t even pencil.

#9

It’s not going to be cheap when all things considered no matter which route you go. The equipment from UBNT is rather affordable for what it does (their 100km 1+GB/s antenna/dish is less than $1,000) but at the end of the day the actual internet and power needed to run the equipment is ongoing. And being so far north does have the disadvantage you mentioned of not being able to rely on solar.

As per our earlier discussions about the project needing to be a somewhat profitable business enterprise at the start, these issues are the reason why. Some modern creature comforts that require $ would need to be established to make smooth transitions into the community and then can be gradually phased out over time. 99.999% of the population would be unable to mentally handle the transition from the life they have now into a 100% paleo/wild lifestyle. If we were better at handling change, then everyone that lost their job in 2008 would have applied for Chinese citizenship and worked at FoxConn.

Sadly, having RELIABLE internet in such a remote (and seasonally harsh) landscape will never be cheap or it would already be there. Remember, you can have your choice of price, quality, and speed…but only two at a time. And I think in some cases, internet in remote Alaska may be only choose one! That generator and it’s fuel would kill your budget unless wind power was reliable in the winter and you had a decent battery bank (which will also cost a pretty penny).

#10

I’m pretty sure it will work fine as outlined in the original post for our purposes. The reliability/uptime thing is only a concern if trying to resell a service to someone who already has 24-7 internet.

Those tp-link antennas are being used irl for 11+ mile point-to-point links and we only have to go 2. So I’m looking at a $369 build + misc. connectors. Seems reasonable.

#11

That’s not too bad. I paid a little under $500 for an entire kit that had the Bullet Titanium M2, 50ft outdoor cable, antenna, wifi/lan router, and various connectors, power adapters, PoE module, etc. All plug-and-play configured to work out of the box. All I had to do was log into the portal installed on the router via IP address on my laptop, choose a wifi signal (either open or password protected) and it connects. Then at that point all the devices on the boat just connect to that router and when the boat goes somewhere else, we just log in a choose a new wifi signal. It’s pretty simple and foolproof.

This is the one I bought for my boat. But on land I would probably try to use a directional antenna since (hopefully) you won’t be rocking back and forth and bobbing up and down.
http://shop.pdqconnect.com/collections/marine-wifi-products/products/allpro-hotspot-sailboat-kit?variant=1146432628

#12

Cool. Yeah, that’s conceptually what I need at point B, but I have all of those bits except the antenna so I’ll just repurpose them. In effect, this system has to do what you’re doing on your boat + whatever magical WiFi/internet you connect to at a distance.

#13

I’ll just throw this out there to see if anyone has experience with it: What are the chances a 5ghz point-to-point connection will work at this range without boosting the power, and with some tree cover at point B? I ask because the equipment is roughly the same price, has higher bandwidth, and most importantly, the antennas are about 40% smaller in that band. That would help a lot in terms of transporting equipment (by canoe!) and keeping it stealthy (since the relay will be on ppublic land). 5ghz is not the best range/power-wise, but it’s not a very long link.

#14

Trees (or anything for that matter) in the way will result in lots of packet loss, especially if your antennas have to be pointed right at each other (will vary based on model and type). Especially so if the wind is fluttering them about. Need to keep them trimmed back or go over them. Having a clear line of sight will make a huge difference.

#15

Pretty cool looking setup here:
http://samy.pl/proxygambit/

#16

We have ordered the radios and antennas for OPTION 2, the 3/4G WiFi relay. We are raising funds for the equipment to power the station. We have $155 to go (as of July 21, 2015). Contributions can be made via PayPal to [email protected]

Basically, we are looking to order a copy of what we already have at the base station, but a little simpler (only 1 battery).

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#17

$55 to go!

1 Like
#18

The system is officially ordered. We’re still $28 shy of our fundraising goal, but robbed the web hosting budget to get things rolling

Still accepting donations!

1 Like
#19

After procuring all of the equipment listed in this thread, it turned out that my initial site analysis had problems. After getting to the land in fall 2015, none of the 7 devices I tested were able to get 2G/3G/4G. So I was stuck at the property with only the ability to bring in super slow 1G cell data. Generally speaking, it took 10-15 minutes for text-only emails to start downloading.

I’m now in Fairbanks, and have scheduled take the HughesNet satellite installer certification tomorrow, and dragging that equipment back to the land next week. Hopefully we’ll be online more regularly shortly after that.

1 Like
#20

Now broadcasting low-speed, high-latency propaganda from a squatted cabin in some boreal forest.

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